Stop that sh*t, AI. You’re hallucinating! @ London DevOps Meetup

London devops Meetup number 76 to remember that number will be important later

um thank you everyone for coming I can see some uh some names from places as far along as Peterborough Cambridge and

Norwich um so we’re really kind of spreading out um our London our London user base to a

further a field um mentions of Edinburgh as well so I’m sure we’ve got people internationally as

well um obviously our speakers are speaking from internationally we’ve got Patrick on thank you so much for coming again Patrick from Ghent I assume

um so yeah welcome to London demos 76 um the second in our summer sessions

um all of which have ended up being themed around generative AI which I think says a lot about where the industry is going at the moment

um so yeah this is the second of three summer sessions um so previously we had John Willis

speaking um we put the video up of that um that went up yesterday so if you haven’t seen that

um yeah an hour on John Willis um and Patrick while riffing on generative AI

um absolutely awesome blew my mind um and I’m sure we’re going to have my mind playing again tonight so um yes

thank you everyone um what is London devops well um here’s what devops might be to you or to me

lots of tools um to a lot of people with devopsis building culture

um I think it’s quite a lot of these things and much more this is my favorite definition of devops a culture where

people regardless of title or background work together to imagine develop deploy and operate a system

thank you to Ken McGrady from thoughtworks for that one um London devops specifically

um we’ve been going since 2014 um and we just for anybody who’s new

here hasn’t been to a meet-up before we generally meet about once a month in the London area

um over the summer things get a bit quiet so we don’t generally physically meet up everyone’s off on holiday or um

signing themselves are down the pub um note to Americans that’s what we call a bar

um and so we’ll go virtual um but yeah generically we are meeting about once a

month if you’ve got a venue we can have in the London area then please let us know if you can fit about 100 people in

um that’ll be awesome um about once a month we meet we need to share the knowledge so that everyone can

meet new people help each other out and much like the talks tonight everything you hear is um is shareable unless you

hear otherwise um all of our meetups unless we have a

technical problem go up on YouTube um so here’s um here’s our YouTube channel um just type down the Devils

into YouTube and you’ll find us or go straight to that link um

and yes we’re recording tonight and so um in a few days time I’m assuming nothing goes wrong with recording we’ll

put this session up as well so that’s all that there for you

um there’s a Code of Conduct yes this is more important than a physical Meetup but it still applies on Zoom

um you know um Dakota con I always make a terrible joke when I’m talking about the code of

conducts but I’m stopping doing that now I’m just gonna put the code of content up there there it is please read it

um please take notice of it um and hopefully we won’t have to have a

um a third occurrence of enforcing the code of conduct I doubt it that’s three occurrences over

like nine years so I’m not too disheartened by that and I did say I wasn’t gonna make a check out of it so I’ll stop talking right now

okay so um yeah this Motley crew’s been together since uh 2014

um organizing um the meetups um and yeah it’s very much a team effort I mean I’m the guy who stands up and

tells terrible jokes most of the time at the front um but it’s absolute team effort

um in in getting these meetups going both the virtual ones and the physicals um I think we’re all here tonight so um

does everyone I’ve got one at a time do you want to introduce yourselves Mark do you want to say hello yeah hello everyone said welcome to

London deals and thank you for coming awesome awesome skip over the guy in the

purple shirts uh Jack you’re here aren’t you do you want to say hello yeah hi everyone again thanks for coming tonight

I hope you enjoy the speakers and big thank you to our people with both so yeah

and Alex there’s at least two Alex Davis on the list so I just was one of the ones come off mute say hello hello hi

everyone good evening or good morning whatever time it is where you are and uh

thanks for joining on the devops good to see you thank you very much Alex Dover number

one you’re always number one to me Alex David um so yeah we’re your organizers if

you’re on the if you’re on the call and you’re interested in speaking if you’re interested in offering us a venue or

sponsoring even um it doesn’t take a huge amount of money to run these but it does take a bit and then please do get in touch with

any one of us similarly if you if there’s anything that you think we can improve anything you don’t like

um then please do get in touch with one of us um those at signs are referring to some social network which I think is now

called X so you can contact us on that thing um if you particularly want to

um or not so um yes sponsors I just start talking about sponsors and it’s an opportunity

for for them to say hello briefly um firstly again since 2014 will be

sponsored by prison digital um and that’s Alex Dover so do you want to say a little a few words about Alex

a few words about prison yeah no thanks Matt so we’re at a devops and Cloud Talent partner straight recruitment

business so if you’re looking to hire devops Engineers give me a shout if you’re looking for a new role in this

industry sector uh give me a shout or if you just want to talk about the market trends um salary benchmarking

um technology trends that we’re seeing our clients use very happy to have a shout out and chat about that as well so

um that’s me prison digital thank you very much thank you president so uh second sponsor uh again not since 2014

because they’ve not been around that long but um doing um doing some brilliant work um you know and growing

very very fast in a very short period of time um amazing work from um Chris and uh Jack do you want to say hello Jack

yeah thanks Matt hi everyone again uh so appreciate we’re devops and clouds

technology um sorry about the background of children arguing over the other way but

I haven’t so we yeah we went through the video from kind of technical uh business

advisory so hello yeah

brilliant thank you Jack and um if you’re offering I’ll have an apricot yogurt please

it’s all going off there it’s all going up there we can’t really hear very much of them

so it’s fine Joe no problem at all um next sponsor we have is um is O’Reilly so O’Reilly I’m sure everyone

knows though Riley um publishes um velocity Originators Etc

um they also um send me a massive box of books to give away um once a year or so and tonight is no

exception um so tonight we’re gonna have a quiz a bit later on so pay attention during the talks because the questions admittedly

not particularly difficult ones are going to relate to the talks that talk that we hear um tonight uh whoops oh God it’s all

going peaked on there we go um so yes so O’Reilly’s and there’s three books I’m going to show you the books

um if you win the quiz um which we’ll do at the end um Andrew in the UK because I’m not

posting out heavy books outside of the UK sorry and they didn’t pay me for that and then you can win one of these three

books uh here’s the first one it is um reflecting battery with my ring light

um security is code um the secops patterns with ows there’s

that book you could choose if you’re the winner um there’s devops tools for which way in that way

for Java developers um by a number of I believe Jay for Wolf um jfrog employees wrote that book so

that’s a good one um and the third book is hacking kubernetes um by uh micro hasselbluss and

um our good friend Andy Martin who I think a few people on the call know and love

um so yeah that’s the quiz later on call right so um and our final sponsor well

not final sponsor at all really um our best sponsor really because we’re using their Zoom for this tonight

um is jfrog um and Ari I’m going to hand over to Harry just to say a few words and uh ping me when you want the next

slide absolutely well hi everybody I’m Ari Waller I’m the community meetups program manager for jprog I’m joined by

Julia battinelli who is my partner in all of this and we’re just really excited uh to be part of your community

um you know not many people these days especially after the long pandemic and pull off online meetups so I’m always

like you guys do you guys know how to do it I don’t know how I see so many other ones uh and sat in hundreds but London

devops has this down where people will actually not uh just want to leave they want to be here so it’s a great way to

spend the summer um for online meetups so uh it’s an honor to be part of your community for that uh like you I’m looking forward to

hearing Mark and Shannon um just really quick about jfrog I don’t feel like for devops meetups I typically have to do

long introductions uh jfrog uh best known for artifactory uh started back in

2008 however uh today we’re much more than that Universal Supply Chain platform for your devops and security

needs you can go to the next slide one of our core values here at jfrog is

community happiness I was told when I was hired that was my mission so that continues to this day we have a raffle

for attendees today uh Jay frog is going to give you a chance to enter her Apple Air tags uh you know for a long time

available I think they’re suddenly back on the market which is nice so we’re happy to be able to offer those to a

winner today now because this is a virtual Meetup I can’t do live drawings because of compliance but anyone that

enters I’m going to go ahead within two business days you’re going to be contacted by email and once you formally

accept the price we are going to send you your Apple Air tags and of course

share your name with the London devops Community to know that somebody actually won these and not me I already I bought

some at Costco last weekend so I’m I’m all good thank you very much um the next slide uh and we’ll also drop

that link also if some of you I know there’s a lot of devops of veterans even

pre-devops veterans that are joining us today however for those of you who are a little newer and are interested in an

introduction to package management course uh specifically for uh um the central European region

um on August 17th at 11 A.M we had a devops 101 introduction uh so for those

of you who are interested in um and hanging and listening to a webinar I’ve

heard Gotham many times she does a great job gives a great overview and gives you some really great practical things for

those of you who want to get down to the basics uh other than that I’m really excited and thanks again Matt for having

us uh be part of uh London devops this summer I almost feel like I’m there

always a pleasure Ari thank you so much and um yes um so yeah Jay frog are

sponsoring uh sponsor the Meetup in general they’re also providing the zoom um so um yes thank you so much

um for that um yeah pre-devops for veterans hmm we might have a couple of them on the call

actually but um you might be a little bit beyond this one um Mark Patrick

Etc there we go so yeah please do sign up for that okay next slide

um devops days London is happening um on uh in September um so yeah there’s still a 20 discount

code there are still some tickets available um so please do um please do go and sign

up there um yeah I’ll be to a number of them it’s a great conference I’ll be there this year we’ve got the devil stays t-shirt

on uh today so uh you know it’s a bit of an old one but there we go um gosh it’s been 10 years event yeah

um so yeah please sign up to that if you can um QE2 Center over in Westminster great venue as well so yeah hopefully

see you there um and we’re about there so yeah we’re gonna have um a talk

um uh and no slides talk which um we’ve had a few of them in the past

um and as an organizer people come to you and say yeah we don’t have any slides you’re like oh my God there’s

been no structure to this it’s gonna be terrible um and the reverse is almost always true

um in fact it’s always been true 100 thinking back on the nice light socks that we’ve had so yeah so Shannon Joel

and Mark um will be speaking um sorry Joel wasn’t sure you were coming or not so I can put your picture up

um but there we go chaos presenting yeah I love the sign of that um so yeah that’s it really

um there’s the um uh there’s the last slide tell us what you think and there’s our email address

there um you can contact us on the Meetup page as well um so that’s a QR code on the

right um also something we’ve been trying to build up a little bit more um in the last few weeks last months is our

LinkedIn presence um we kind of want that to live outside of we want the Meetup Group to live

outside of meetup.com um not because there’s anything wrong with it but just because we want more of

a continuing presence that’s a bit more uh a bit closer to where people are spending a lot of time um so yeah the LinkedIn page is um is

doing better now we’re putting more things on it and trying to remember to do that so please do go and uh go and follow us

do you follow people maintain this I think you do yeah what’s that thank you uh right so

um time for me to shut up now um and hand over to our speakers for

this evening um so um yeah not quite sure how this is gonna work but I’m cool with that I’m

totally cool with that so yeah please do turn out to 11. uh go for it Mark

Shannon Joel floor is yours thank you we’ve got it thank you so much thank you for the invitation specifically at a

Mark cluart Mark long time no see it’s been a while since I’ve been to London but thanks for the invitation when Mark

first came to me it said you know would you like to give some kind of talk to our user group I said sure but I’m going

to bring along some friends because what I like to do is have some kind of Confrontation

on a meeting like this so Joel and I have uh had a podcast for the last nine

months called uh you’re kidding me that’s in my Eula my end user license agreement and that has actually morphed

into a new show that’s going to launch in September that talks about the legal

ramifications of using Ai and the different platforms and I thought it’d be great to have him come on to talk a

bit and then to bring in Shannon is not the contrarian view but just the contrarian in general

so for those of you that don’t know Shannon I like to call her the Godmother

of desecups because she’s the one that taught me about devsecops if you don’t know a little bit about me I did start

devsecops days as Patrick started devops days which is still going strong both of

those they’re going the the thing that we want to to cover today

is there are reasons and things that you should be aware of

when you’re using AI and I want to I want to start Joel I’m going to just kick it over to you for a

little bit because you and I have talked about this quite a bit I want to get warmed up can you kind of give me just

the 30-second overview of the Stephen Schwartz case and what happened in New

York federal court who are sure um hi guys uh thanks for having us

thanks for having me uh I’m Jewell mcball uh I I’m I I’m a lawyer in New

York and New Jersey um I chair my firm’s intellectual property practice as well as its

internet law practice and of course you know query what interlaw internet law

means in 2023 uh but it’s fair to say that it uh certainly incorporates AI

platforms um uh and I am increasingly finding

myself from a legal perspective delving into these issues um because you know as a service

provider I’ve we you know I’m pleased to say I’ve got a good number of clients that are asking questions uh it’s

usually from the employment side meaning what does their liability liability look

like if they or their employees are using these tools in rendering their own

services whether those Services may be accounting services uh Financial advisory Services uh even some doctors

have asked we my firm happens to represent a lot of doctors and dentists so this is happening in real time

um but uh with respect to Mark’s question um and of course this resonated with me

because the story I’m about to tell is exactly what to do I am principally a

litigator I do do some counseling um I certainly started my career often

well Joel just went off is that just me or was that everybody I think we lost it no I’m I’m can you

hear me now there we are there you go yeah that was a weird thing it was like the the the the zoom just dropped and I

just telling you to get to the punch line all right very good um okay so as I was saying

um here here’s the story in a nutshell a lawyer a uh plaintiff’s personal injury

lawyer decided in His Infinite Wisdom that he was going to sign a document on

behalf of his partner and his partner had relied on quote-unquote authorities that he had

received from I believe it was Chad GPT um the other sides gets his papers and

they look at those citations um and just quickly every legal case in the United States as I think it does

also in England has a specific citation so that you can track it down and read the case well these K these citations

could not be found by the defendant’s attorney they wrote to plaintiff’s attorney and says yeah we can’t make

sense of let’s say 10 or so of your citations they don’t seem to exist what say you

um and and that began what what I think was a very certainly a very embarrassing Affair for

the attorneys so long story short what ends up happening is the attorney who signed the pleading without reviewing

his partner’s work um ends up lying to the court with respect to the fact that he says he was

on vacation when the court was making certain inquiries of him in fact his partner was on vacation he was waiting

for his partner to return so that he could essentially have his partner who had authored the document respond to

certain inquiries and so it was Lie built upon lie built upon lie long story short

it emerges rather quickly that the sources that are purportedly legal

sources were in fact derived from chat gbt they were erroneous they simply

didn’t exist it’s not as if there was an error with them they just wholeheartedly did not exist

um and so that in turn prompted a proceeding in which a very senior judge

in the southern district of New York which is essentially the Manhattan District conducted a hearing and he said

you know confirming all of these lies essentially what I’m telling you and then issued an opinion about maybe two

weeks later maybe not even in which he only fined the attorneys I think was

five thousand bucks you know that pissed me off too Joel you and I know it did

we talked about it you thought it was a great Injustice financially and I think it was based upon what he does Shannon I

want to bring you in on this because I was going to say I don’t think it was an injustice I think that he sent a message

and then I also think that he added some things that I thought was also going to

provoke a greater amount of legal problems for those lawyers which was they had to send out the information

they gathered to the judges as part of that verdict

part of the sanction was as I recall was the judge’s opinion which was about 20

minutes 20 Pages 20 minutes had to be included in any resulting engagement they make with new clients I mean

needless to say These Guys these these two guys were so embarrassed and have been embarrassed more

importantly yes he only banged them for five thousand dollars but their career release for the short term has

effectively been ruined I mean I mean they’ve lost thousands of dollars they’re out there so it’s not like any

kind of credibility you screw the money it’s The credibility is gone you and I had discussed on this one when

we first started following was the damn AI was just hallucinating was making

up oh yeah it has that problem I mean if you think about it this lawyer

goes over to a prompt asks a question gets back some information doesn’t realize he needs to actually like go

chase down whether that information is real or not which is definitely something he should have been doing but

has no idea right I mean there’s just literally a you know search box and so

it’s not like they’re getting training they’re not getting like a pre-tutorial you’re not being taught about things

like temperature or random noise or hallucinations and so you know this

lawyer in my mind has been going after putting information down but I I still

think that there’s a little bit of um in my mind uh responsibility on the

part of open AI for what they’re doing to make it easy to use it

right and I don’t go for that I don’t buy into that but you know okay well I

do so so this case not surprisingly has prompted law firms much like mine to

develop an AI policy um and I did not take the first draft at

it but sitting all I also sit on my firm’s internal technology committee and so I looked at it and it’s a mess I’m

not surprisingly well you can get AI to fix that yeah right that was the joke we

actually had someone as a goof had a I write our firm’s AI policy like just at least take a stab oh yeah uh you know

talk about your talk about your feedback loop um but um no I I mean it’s a mess

because of course we’re trying to set up parameters and guidelines and you know there’s just there’s a thousand

permutations so I’ve made some suggestions to it but you know but technology is advancing a lot right now

too I mean there’s so many permutations now different mod goals

um and so I keep seeing people talk about uh generative AI as if it’s chat

GPT and they kind of are missing the understanding that they need to have this goes back to what I was saying

I think there’s some responsibility on the folks that are generating this stuff for the world right but they should have

to almost figure out how to train people what do they you know need to do to be able to leverage this set of

capabilities well I’m not saying like you need to make me a PhD at it but I should know some of the basic things

that it shouldn’t just be a prompt if there’s a bunch of Microsoft trained people that are just getting started

with word they do they have no they don’t they don’t let me die oh please

they have the little question mark where is the I mean have you clicked on the little question mark

uh no exactly you know why because it’s buried off in the inside Patrick says do we

train people to use the internet I think Patrick and I are in agreement on that we could talk a lot along this Fame but

there is a book on how to use the internet I will tell you there are different legal aspects that I

want to look at in the next half hour too Joel one of the the other things that you and I talked about away from

that case and no new subject here is the mid-journey case where there was an

artist that created content and this has really played into the

mainstream now is who owns the content once it’s generated let’s let’s not even

get talking about the Sarah Silverman uh way yet I want to talk about who owns

the final content if you’re using an engine like this well that that’s that’s great because the the laws in the United

States and again I can’t speak to English law um or or any other jurisdiction for that

matter but the laws in the United States if you remember we’ve talked about this is that effectively a human has to be

the originator of the work that’s the language we use in copyright law it’s called a work and so it becomes very

complicated when you now have you know an an AI platform generating this was as

I recall this was a uh the the creation of an anime character wasn’t it Mark that’s my record no they had done like

10 versions of some kind of image that they wanted to create and then chose one

of them and then once they put that image out and said this is ours right then all broke loose right but the

images I recall was like a cartoon or anime image but in any event it it doesn’t matter but you see that’s so

that’s where the great you know that’s where the real you know the rubber meets the road is in that selection process

let’s say you have an AI generator you’re generating 10 images if the human

at the end of the day is nevertheless the one selecting it and presumably publishing it to the internet but at

least selecting it is that enough human creativity for purposes of creating an

interest in the work that would be you know amenable to copyright registration in this country I’ve seen arguments go

both ways I I don’t think it’s at least when I last looked at this a couple of months ago I I don’t you know I don’t

think we’re going to have a definitive statement on this and I have a speaking suspicion this issue is going to find

its way to the U.S Supreme chord within the next two to three years on the particularly on the copyright front

which is what is you know we have some guidelines now but but people are really going to

look to clarify that because there’s a ton of content there that could fall on either side of that dividing line and I

think we really need I suspect we’re going to need some real clarification Shannon what do you got

yeah so here’s the thing so we’re talking about the law piece of it and it’s super important and critical but

what rarely happens is law getting translated into technology paradigms so

where do you go to be able to leverage uh say this Legal Information do you go

to the EULA and input that into your model do you actually go and look and see if it’s copyright material do you

actually leverage maybe robots.txt to be able to inform what you’re trying to accomplish with automation associated

with it and I think that’s where you’re going to see that there’s some challenges is even if you could legally

deal with the ramifications how are we actually Translating that into standards that we’re all using right now most of

the use of AI uh Lang chains some of the other kinds of technology that are out

there there essentially isn’t anything that’s guarding the information being put in is

an input or potentially being used in training outside of maybe say

um you know some of the actual models out there in actual technology saying we’re not going to use your input train

which now if you look at open AI they talk about if you’re using their API they’re not going to use supposedly use

your information to train I’m not sure how exactly they’re accomplishing that because they’re not real transparent about it but my concern is about how do

you translate the legal to the technology stuff to make it so we’re all capable of doing it

doing it well this goes back to my whole notion about um are we actually educating people on

this and I know we’re talking about the internet is the reason why we shouldn’t train people but I’m going to just tell you coming back around this is

technology that’s very challenging it’s been put together by phds uh I don’t know that we’ve actually we’ve like

lowered the bar significantly to the point where we’re actually letting people in and leveraging this information but they again don’t know

what they need to tune tweak um how to actually leverage it in a way that gets back the result they’re actually looking

for well look you’re not asking a question but let me just add to that I mean

there’s a huge disconnect between the speed with which technology moves and the speed with which law moves right the

old adage the wheels of Justice turn slowly that that’s true certainly too on

you know in terms of the development of laws never mind just litigating cases

um and I don’t you know the the good news is and I think I’ve said this to both of you before is that in most

models so for example when trademarks hit the internet it was a big deal and everyone there were certain

practitioners that thought about a new paradigm and did the old trademark laws we have in place apply to the internet

they have I I mean there may be some a few additional wrinkles but it’s not as

if we have to thank God upend the entire you know uh uh in the contract of

trademarks at least the entire regime to account for advancements in technology I think ai’s a little different for a

couple of different reasons not the least of which is I think there’s a democratization of knowledge that comes

with the platform and that creates some unique permutations that don’t exist on

the on the trademark front but I’m kind of hoping that you know when we figure it out and I you know it’s certainly

still an ongoing process we’re not going to have to essentially be Reinventing the wheel uh here’s here’s another topic Shannon I

see you getting ready to say that but I want to pull in another topic too as we’re doing this the New York Times last

month had a podcast um that one of the segments was on Sarah

Silverman if you know her the comedian and she is actually suing

because the engine can create jokes like hers so the engine is gone and scraped her

content in and somebody typed in tell me a joke in the voice of Sarah Silverman or any style and it came out and she

said that sounds like me and so she’s saying that’s my content

you don’t have my approval and I’m wondering where we are right now in that

what is the approval process where as an example Zoom just came out with their

brand new Eula that they extended and said we own everything that you do on

zoom and we’re gonna suck it in to train our AI in large language models we’ve

got uh Joe I’ll start with you oh no that’s Shannon I’ll go to you first because I always go to Joel where are we

now with consent you know if you look at technology consent there’s been advances with

things like privacy being able to do cookies who’s not pissed off by how we Implement cookie uh consent these days I

I’d be surprised to find a few they’re like I love it I think it’s great um you know how are we actually putting

these things into practice making it so that folks are actually happy with the way these things are going to come together and the idea here is consent

how do you consent to your images technology all these things being used I

am not seeing a lot of advancement there in terms of the industry I’m seeing a lot about you know content authenticity

or content fraud or being able to like deal with the different ways in which

you can I I identify this type of fraudulent data and I think that’s where the

challenge is is that um in technology the consent area is not there but if you

look at some of the things we’ve done in the past like robots.txt and firewalls and so from a security perspective what

I find is that most of the time security gets bolted on because something didn’t actually work with what we were all trying to do and like oh this protects

you great we’re going to all start to use it and that becomes sort of the norm and so you know I think Patrick just

brought up that there’s actually a fire a waft-like thing for llms now and I

think that’s where we’re going to start to see that if it doesn’t get solved with some sort of standard a way in

which we’re going to Grant consent to content uh how we’re going to actually deal with licensing models or some of

these things but the Technology’s already out there that’s allowing for this but we haven’t really solved with

you know how are we going to grant that information to people and that’s where I think that we need something almost like

robot stock.text if not robust stop texting Next Generation form so

so that you’ve had to go look it up because right now um the fact of the matter is if you go look at a lot of the

sites out there they allow for indexing as an example is scraping your content

indexing and scraping your content indexing for the for the reason to go

put it into a model and and that’s an interesting area where I just don’t know the answer and I think you know I’d go

back to Joel what is the court what what are the courts going to leverage in terms of evidence for your intent on

this kind of data is sharing copyright notes like what is it going to be that would allow for us to have protections

or require licensing or you know in Sarah Silverman’s case what she’s really looking for is I want to be paid for my

content and my style um and so I think that’s where you know right now generative AI really hasn’t

solved the problem of how are they going to monetize actually a basis for having this conversation

Joe I’m going to jump in real quick to to kind of preface what I’d like to hear

you take on too in addition to what Shannon said is I’m going to argue that

scraping has been going on since the internet started I agree easy cases Google I mean 1999

they just scraped the internet right so I’m wondering is if it’s such

horrendously bad stuff now what’s being said about Google what’s the legal

ramifications of Google scraping the internet every day Joel so a couple of things uh number one

is that was litigated right you can appreciate the companies has for years across a multitude of sectors have sued

Google on grounds that are basically appropriating their their content

the thrust of those cases as I remember them I’ve not looked at them in a number of years was it was publicly accessible

yes okay they are aggregating that data um and they’re doing things with it that

maybe hasn’t been done with it before but it’s out there it’s publicly available you can’t whine about it I

mean that was the that was essentially I’m sorry but I would argue that’s what open AI is doing they’re not going and

scraping private data they’re scraping the net well let me tell you why it’s something else I disagree I think

they’re scraping both and there’s yes I’m going for the argument I don’t think they specifically are but I think their

users are so so this is this is really interesting because the Sarah Silverman by the way Mark since we spoke about

this not surprisingly there are a number of musicians that are also filing claims

based on the same Theory write me a song that sounds like Bob Dylan right so

there’s some band actually out there um I’m a big fan of the Pixies they were you know they originated in Boston in

the mid 1980s so someone said write a song like Frank Black Frank Black is the pseudonym for the for the lead singer

and he looked at it he said someone put it in front of him he’s like oh that sucks um and then not surprisingly I think it

was him or or maybe I’m conflating stories but bottom line is I know there are suits out there by songwriters under

the same premise and you know from a legal perspective it’s not a copyright claim right because no one’s claiming

including the plaintiffs that the content nor could they that the content is theirs they didn’t generate it so

instead you kind of have the it’s the red-headed stepchild of intellectual property in the United States called

rights of publicity and this is an area actually the first brief time a couple

years ago I was really interested in and actually did some talks and wrote a little bit about this because

um first of all the law is entirely different in California than it is in New York particularly as it relates to

deceit but but putting that aside it’s really interesting so what Sarah Silverman’s claim is not that the joke

is hers but that you know in the way that you teed it up Mark that the style of the joke or the song in the case of

the songwriter is in My Style and what have you done to train your machine to

get there you have essentially violated my rights of publicity which at least

during the course of my life and I believe this is consistent in the United States I get to control

um I I have no idea how this case is going to come out I did read Sarah Silverman’s complaint I think it’s really

interesting I think it’s super novel I think it raises a lot of questions um you know at the risk of copying out I

think it could also go in two directions if it’s fundamentally litigated and not settled I would suspect

I would suspect and this is true of 95 of cases that are commenced that it will

settle because if it goes to the mat uh it could be it could be trouble for

either the artist or certainly the platforms and I sincerely hope the case

settles um because if not I think it’s just going to end up being a loser for both

but again shaking your head yes there on that one yeah I I think this is where if you

start to look around about how information can be used the notion of

style is really really interesting because it actually broaches on the

notion of privacy and that’s where you’re starting to see convergence on all of these things right and this is

where I think from a technology perspective the reason why I’m deeply interested in law and all of this is

because as you write software and you’re starting to put things in like hey maybe I’ll put a prompt in here and I’ll add a

way for a user to do something interesting unique and novel um you have that obligation now and

potentially liability Brewing where you’re actually now maybe responsible for the content you’re pulling in and

this is where like my way of thinking about it is who’s setting their robots.txt appropriately has that

actually been something that people are thinking about I can tell you I’ve raised that at a lot of companies and um

what’s interesting about robot style text is most people are like oh it’s just for indexing it’s okay we want to give that stuff and so they’re more

relaxed about their robots.txt I would actually say I would not be anymore um I would be really deliberate about

who I’m allowing to index and if it’s not in that file I would actually be concerned about that particular file on

my site because I do think that that’s an area where to you know to Joel’s perspective around the right to

publicity I think we all have to get a little bit more intentful about what we’re going to put out there what’s

behind an authentication gate because those are things where that’s actually providing your intent for potentially

legal purpose and I I don’t know if it’s actually looked at that way so Joel I’m going to ping-pong it back to you

because my perspective is as a technologist we should be using these mechanisms that are out they’re in an

appropriate way and I’m not sure that they’ve actually gotten the um the respect they probably deserve

because before now they really weren’t necessarily something that we would all be super concerned about but now I

actually think this is the place where we should start to think about how do we actually uh relay our intent for how our

information is being leveraged and I I want to jump in and go old world

on this thing that and I saw the comment from Patrick that said I want to own my

voice my face my content the problem that I’m seeing with all of this is that means that I as an author

if I admire JD Salinger and I take this to the extreme I say you

know I want to write in the style of J.D Salinger it’s almost as if we’re saying

the potential is there that you can’t be like anybody else everything you do has to be original and I’m completely

against that that I can’t use this to actually create stuff in the voice of

that makes no sense to me and I don’t mean the literal voice in the style right

well well and look it’s a balancing test right because you know let’s take the

copyright concept of What’s called the derivative work or a transformative work um you know you can write in the style

of course of JD Salinger and that is not a copyright violation you can of course

Even build on the themes and the stories that he creates your argument would be that you are a

I guess the most obvious example most recent example in the United States was uh this these Prince photographs these

Andy Warhol Prince photographs uh where they were basically silk screened with colors behind them purple orange but the

original photograph was taken by you know someone far less famous Andy Andy

adds a splash of color and then claims of course that it’s a transformative work the Supreme Court recently said no

it isn’t um because you know and and it kind of like basically parsed the image

um that doesn’t answer your question but I guess what I’m what I’m trying to get at is

there’s a difference between and and look it may be very very well be

a hairline difference I’m not I’m not I’m not I’m just really saying it exists

between good pointing that that which is

yours and that which I can Riff on you know yeah and that’s my that’s my

argument

my my argument is that there is such a hairline at this point that you have to

be explicit these days about what you’re going to allow and not allow maybe there needs to be something in your content

that says you can use this for my style you can use this for um extending your derivatives like what is that ability

because I think this is where and we’ve done this folks with open source who’s reading I know we all love them the GPL

or some of the things

that allows us to bring hey I know Joel’s reading it and he reads it for us right

um and I think it’s really important though to think about the fact of the matter is that our content probably now

needs some level of almost like a GPL to it for us to start thinking about how we’re going to add this stuff into our

technology and extend it I know you’re freaking without intent then you’re gonna have

all of this churn and continual confusion and if you want to solve the

problem of you know is this something that I need to go licensed because this is really what it’s about like let’s be all real very honest with each other

it’s about money people are actually trying to say I made something and I made it so that I can make money off of

it and now you’re trying to use it so that you can make money off of it and the answer is you know nothing is free

basically if you look at the internet yeah there’s a whole bunch of things that we can share and but at the same

time it’s all somewhat licensed in some way whether it’s an MIT license that

says I don’t care what you do with this or uh and go make whatever money you want off of it or it’s you know a GPL

that says here’s what you’re gonna have to do to be able to use my stuff

um can you introduce you know you’re talking about the concept of intent I mean the the the great thing the great

Boon to intellectual property at least with respect to patents trademarks and

and copyright is it to find liability intent is not part of that analysis and

so if you’re now baking into an intent requirement you’re going to really fundamentally turn on their heads that

jurisprudence intent does become a factor when you’re assessing enhanced

damages or what we call most often punitive damages because at that point now we’ve basically said or the law

treats them as Scoundrels and the punitive damages of course are designed to dissuade either the party or

certainly those similarly positioned the idea being that there’d be some sort of trickle-down notice that’s received by

them to refrain from such conduct but importantly intent is you know I mean

intellectual property violations in this country are as a practical matter strict liability offenses and we say strict

liability because if you do it your your get you’re liable you’re guilty right it

does not turn on the on the issue of what your intent was that’s a damages issue it is a little bit I’m talking

about the intent of the Creator what was the intent of the Creator in what they put out there were they doing it for

publicity were they doing it to share were they doing it for somebody to build off of I’m not necessarily saying the intent of

the person who’s taking the information I’m talking about the intent of the person who’s sharing the information in

the first place the Creator are they actually putting it out there and saying here’s the protections and the

expectation I have of the information that I’m sharing because what we’re seeing is and this is where I’m really

curious Joel is in the Euless we’re basically signing away our rights to Mark’s point about Zoom right now all of

this stuff is being slurped into a big training model right and so you know my

style and Mark style and your style are all being stolen away hey I want to follow up on that because

we’re going to run short on time here and you just brought in a perfect segue here for those of you that aren’t going

to get the reference there is uh a um uh a segment of Black Mirror that handles

this I think it’s a season six episode one Shannon I had you watch it if you

haven’t seen that please go and watch Black Mirror if you get a chance it’s on Netflix but one of the things that it

reminded me of what Zoom is doing right now they’re saying we own everything

that you’re doing and we’re not offering you a chance to opt out there is no opt

out on Zoom sucking in what we’re doing right now so in that case I think that’s outside

the boundaries that number one is I look at Zoom as a platform almost a personal

platform for personal conversations and they have no right to go in and suck

that in any more than somebody has a right to go in and suck in all my email which we know do you know Google is

doing to get ads to me but the the big context here Joel is zoom is saying you

belong to us and you cannot opt out if you use our platform

and that’s a question as much as a comment Joel okay I didn’t I was waiting for the rise of inflection at the end of

that statement but I wasn’t so lucky um

uh sorry what is the question I I the

question is that Zoom is saying if you use our platform we own what you do yes

okay and we’ll opt out there is no opt-out no that’s right and you and I have battled this before

I’ve I’ve told you that as a matter of law as a matter of contract law we we

can contract away your rights and of course the way that we would do that there is say we don’t want to play on

your platform Zoom that’s what Patrick just said yeah right right so but the

problem is of course is that it’s the industry standard right I mean to what extent has Zoom at least since the

pandemic become the de facto Town Square you exclude me from zoom and

notwithstanding the existence of teams and Cisco’s what is Cisco’s uh web WebEx

whatever it is you know okay so now I can’t speak in the Town

Square but you’ve given me you know a a little bit of space next to a dumpster uh you know three blocks away my my

point is is that they there’s nothing we can do we don’t

want to give them our content that we don’t play on their platform but you know everyone as soon as you say

that everyone recognizes the impracticality of that when Zoom controls something like 90 at least 90

of all video conferencing uh

it’s cornered the market right we’re over the Tipping Point there’s really nowhere for us us there’s nowhere else

for us to go and really do the things we need to do because the other platforms are just they don’t have that kind of

degree of market share but they can certainly do it and we can

certainly surrender those rights Patrick can I bring you in can you turn your camera and just come in for a second

because I know you’ve been part of this movement in general um when we’re talking about this if we s

is there the possibility to set up a platform that isn’t monitored and me as a

promoter let’s say I’m taking it on with you and I’m saying if you give me the platform I’m going to blow it up is

there something like that available I know you were working on something for a while

well there’s the uh more of the decentralized video processing and stuff it exists in open source and people have

been using it for a while but obviously it’s the matter of crowd and convenience and price

uh because technically it’s doable but like who wants to do it and yeah

a broker who does the contacting and then you could argue like who owns the contacts and the contact graph but but

on the video you could do it right uh and yeah I mean it’s possible for all of

us to care about our rights I think that’s the issue is like I think what Zoom just did makes them weak in the

market because somebody is going to leverage their inability to opt out for training as a mode for being able to

support their platform and better rights and I’m suggesting to you uh that on

balance uh it’s not going to make a lick a difference because certainly

uh uh companies certainly from a business like like zooms business accounts they’re not going to care

there’s so they’re so beholden to zoom now and so ingrained with training their

staff on how to use it that the anyone directing their I.T and their and their

tools is is is not going to want to engage in a ramp up with respect to learning a new platform and that include

maybe if you’re maybe if you’re yeah but maybe if you’re recording something you don’t want shared with zoom you’re not doing it on Zoom anymore

maybe and I don’t doubt that there’s going to be a percentage some percentage but it will be negligible

but potentially it’s still the creators that care enough right

Patrick it’ll be it’ll be you know it’ll be Niche oriented groups like like this one that you know where you’re going to

have some people that are invested and are going to identify another tool but Zoom doesn’t care financially about this

group it cares about its corporate accounts with Procter and Gamble we are saying the same thing we are in

agreement entirely I don’t know that they don’t care though because if their trade secrets are being pumped into a

model they might actually care so it may turn out different from my perspective

when they really think about what it is they’re using Zoom for and all the idea Generation Well now you’re now you’re

really onto something because this is one of the issues of course that I’ve talked about with you mark which is that we’re not just talking about AI creating

fallacy we’re talking about AI now being essentially a method by which to you

know absorb confidential or proprietary information which is scary stuff not only of the entity or person who’s

inputting the data but any third-party information that individual may have acquired I’ve got a sales report from

one of my largest vendors I’m gonna you know I’m now going to create a question in chat GPT that uses some of that first

line revenue right yeah our NDA is about to break I mean like if you’re using

Zoom are you violating an NDA that you had those are all really interesting questions I I want to interrupt here for

a second because I want to make sure we’re on time Matt I wasn’t sure uh what our time limit was here we’re five after

the hour where are we on time Matt Saunders

or Mark clewitt or Jack yeah keep going it’s very very

interesting yeah just keep rolling all right Patrick if

you want to jump in this conversation you’re going to have to interrupt because it doesn’t stop and I I know you

had some points to make there so I I wanted to say as a product vendor

uh using generative AI to provide services to your customer we recently had a discussion about

so yes would like to give customers the option to use the AI yes or no but we

found that it creates like a fork in the product do you go for example for intelligent

search or for a non-intelligent search and so now every time you make a

decision in the product roadmap it’s going to be like oh we need to support both cases like one on the opt-in and

it’s not just about generating the content it’s like using AI in your product in different features so I

wanted to show that flip side of of course yes they make a choice but there is a big cost uh us screaming

about like oh we we disable the AI there’s a cost of the company maintaining that as a product well and

and what we haven’t really talked about Mark is that there’s AI for using everybody else’s stuff as inputs but

what if you’re actually a Content generator that wants to use AI on your own stuff that’s a totally different problem space and you’re starting to see

models now where they’re allowing for co-mingling between what’s external and

what’s internal to create even better outcomes and that also puts another wrinkle into the middle of this the

other thing that is happening too and I sent you the link last week Shannon is there are now open source AI engines

that you can actually run on your laptop and Supply your own data from a lawyer’s

perspective Joel I think that’s a fascinating thing that a company a law

firm could own an AI engine and pull in the cases that they want to reference

right but that that the way that you’re describing it though that that engine is only going to be as broad as that which

the law firm has its fingers on the what we typically look for at least on the

litigation side is it’s precisely because we’re looking for analogous

cases in other words we’re looking for factually and ideally with the same legal outcome what approximates our

circumstances invariably it’s the stuff outside of the very box You just defined

that we’re interested in pulling but it doesn’t have to be meaning I’ve found 10

cases that relate to what I’m working on now in court you could suck those into your engine and they are now legitimate

reference points is that’s what you’re doing anyway now it’s just being

automated and then possibly analyzed for correlation between those 10 documents

well I will tell you you know again as you know I’m a litigator so we use certain tools like Thompson Reuters

produces the gold standard called Westlaw whichever indicator relies on to

sort of look up citations not surprisingly they have because I’m I’m also you know I’m asked a sort of beta

test some other stuff and this is public knowledge um they’re incorporating Ai and the way

they Inc like what does that mean so the way that they incorporate it is the the value added they offer is if you

find relevant cases and if you give us basically the complaint or some sort of

um some sort of first step with respect to having the engine recognize the facts

of this case it will actually draft and somewhat asked this I think it was maybe

Patrick earlier on on the chat when is AI going to be able to effectively

litigate a case um so it’s there I mean it’s it’s happening the other interesting thing is

just this past year I believe there was a defendant in some State

Court action somewhere maybe California not surprisingly that or maybe it was Florida that defended themselves with an

AI model their defense attorney was literally right an AI model which blew

my mind and goes to this issue I mean I I never looked back I don’t know how it went I haven’t seen a transcript

um but that’s that’s pretty amazing to me um it also creates a little bit of job

insecurity so of course but um no I I I I mean it’s there it’s it’s

gonna happen I tell my partners all the time we’re going to be rendered litigators are going to be rendered

obsolete uh with uh for all practical purposes sooner rather than later but

you know I don’t know about that but they’ve been saying that about baseball right that umpires were going to be replaced with with with cameras and

computers for purposes of calling strikes and yet you know we all see bonfires are anachronism to the game you

could you know what that’s gonna happen when you can first when you can sue your first uh AI model that’s actually when

you’re going to see people become obsolete and not even tell them

let’s see here I am saying uh that it’s we’ve been at it for an hour now I want

to call an end to it but I’m going to ask each of you kind of to give us a

short overview on where people should start looking for the type of content

that we’re talking about as far as the legal aspects Joel I’ll go to you first if people want to follow up on the

discussions that we’ve had other than going to your podcast what’s in my Eula where else should be people be looking

for this um well a couple of different I mean first and foremost about 15 minutes ago

I dropped my email in the chat box to the extent that any of you want to follow up I’d be happy uh you know to

speak to you over the phone or certainly you can write me an email um that’s one place in terms of other

sources um there’s a ton out there I guess the problem is is that we don’t have a lot

of guidance from our Judiciary yet so I can’t I I wish I could point you in one

direction that says this has a great collection on sort of the legal ramifications of AI generally look at

this blog look at these dozen cases to my knowledge and I haven’t looked at this admittedly in at least 30 days but

this was something that I was interested in trying to track down when I last looked at this about a month ago there was nothing in existence

um well then that begs the question why aren’t you and I doing that as a podcast starting in September

three of us could just go crazy on this stuff yeah I mean there’s all there’s there’s all kinds of nooks and crannies

and and you know the only thing I will say is to the extent of the people on here you have clients that are what I call the Professional Services so I’m

specifically thinking of like Finance accounting and lawyers to the extent that you’re you know doing work for them

um AI you know AI is a really scary thing because I think I think if not

properly utilized meaning what does that mean it means not if not properly independently vetted by the professional

I think they’re just at least in the United States at least opening them opening themselves up to just a total

parade of horribles not the least of which includes countless malpractice actions

um and I’m not a malpractice attorney but I think that is the next sort of Boon within this space is you’re going

to see institutional clients individuals coming back and wanting to hold the

service provider accountable for having erroneously relied on the AI platform of

choice Shannon uh your take on it where are you

looking for this or are you inventing your own no I’ve been looking for it so um you

know law.com is one that I have in my little coffers I’ve got Bloomberg uh

there’s there’s tons of stuff out there actually um those are the two that I really pay

attention to also interestingly um there’s a variety of information out

there at some of the ethical AI capabilities so you can like watch their

um their feeds the the bar association I actually talked about it so like if you

go to americanpar.org they actually talk about these things I think Patrick you pointed

to a few here um all really useful and the reason why

I care deeply again kind of coming back is translating AI into Tech like what

can you be thinking about what is on the horizon how can we actually set up to

put some of this information into our technical capabilities sooner um because a lot of us especially in

devops would really be like would love to use these tools to be able to make and create better things and actually be

more productive so I do think it’s worthy of being informed at minimum those few sources tell me something

though I’m just curious Shannon that the sources you just identified Bloomberg the ABA law.com

um they they sort of report on this though in terms of like they’ve not aggregated it you’re just saying no I

just kind of pay attention to what they’re pumping out the aggregate haters have actually been not that

helpful so I just added into an RSS feed and basically anytime something pops I get a notification for it and that

allows me to kind of aggregate too yeah well the three of us should really talk about creating some sort of like

cogent reason I don’t know what that looks like um but we should at least have happy to do it

yes Patrick I assume you’re in on that with us

since you had a running diatribe over there in the conversation

through it that’s great it’s like

all right I am going to put a pin in it here Matt thank you so much for the time Mark Lewis thank you for the uh the

offer to come and talk and just kind of talk our way through this thing I hope people found that helpful it’s such a

broad topic and what we want to do is I I want to focus on the legal aspect and

I think the follow-up to this conversation is literally I’m thinking about a podcast on the legal aspects of

AI because there’s so much that we could cover anyway thanks everybody uh Matt I’ll

turn it back to you for the final brilliant thank you so much Mark thank

you Shannon thank you Joel um yeah um just a bewarding amount of

issues that come out of Ai and the explosion that’s gone on in the last uh what six months to a year

um you know and actually hearing well thought out reasons um narrative from the likes of you is um

um you know it’s definitely where we need to be heading to so yes thank you so much everybody that’s um that’s been

a wonderful chat um again much with with John’s um chat a couple of weeks ago

um I don’t pretend to have followed all of it um but yeah so many good links and thank you so much Patrick as well for um for

your contributions in there um and yeah a lot to think about so brilliant thank you

so um let’s just um uh kind of wrap up the uh the uh the

meet up we’re going to have a little quiz um if my mouse pointer starts working

again give me one moments there we go uh so

let me just share my screen this one here yeah not to be rude but I’m gonna have to run I’ve got another one going

on but good absolutely no problem at all thank you so much to see you cheers

okay right so hopefully you can see um my screen

um just uh yes to make a life on the mood a little bit let’s have a little quiz

um I’ve cracked open the beer now so yeah hope you have too um much like last time it’s on slido I’ll

put the link in the um in the zoom chat uh oh Patrick AI is uh is going to win

this um unfortunately it’s only a quiz that I can send I can I’ll send you one of these books

um do another quiz if you’re in the UK um I might make an exception if someone called Patrick AI wins it however

um but he knows everything in all these books anyway so the three books number one uh you get a choice of what were

these three books um hacking kubernetes by Andrew Martin and Michael house number two

um security is code um by BK stuck up Das and Virginia Chu

and number three devops tools for Java developers by one two three four people

whose names I’m not going to read out because we don’t have time for that um so please uh do join the quiz

um devops Dover I’m not sure you are allowed to win because you’re part of the organizing committee what have I

told you about this sort of thing okay so right here’s a quiz um yeah the questions are really hard so I hope

you’ve been paying attention um so yeah good luck to everyone let’s get going

right so first question mark Miller runs an annual virtual uh conference on

devops what is it called is it or we year devops is it all month devops

is it all day devops or is it all our devops vote now quick

you’ve got three seconds left yeah

all right well done to most people who have got that right well done all day devops is the answer

and who’s winning over we’re gonna have to have a word about this okay um congratulations to to

not AI who is our leading um uh I was going to say our leading human

participant but then that suggests that there isn’t human but she probably is

um there we go uh yes I wanted to not II

um right second question um Shannon who’s one of the founders of which Community website is it devisops.org is it devsecops.org

is it Dev test build monitor no Ops org or is it destroyalmonsters.com

adding bits into devops got a bit silly at the end so I don’t know where I am from

my own imagination okay so well done to most people who’ve got that right again

devsecops.org is correct who’s winning now don’t refuse you again I’m just gonna delete you from the organizing

committee not AI as I come to the foreign

congratulations to not Ai and Patrick a.i’s second hot on the heels third

question name a popular generative AI image tool me Journey

end game start flight or into image

to be honest I didn’t actually check the three wrong answers here to make sure they’re not actually ginai tools

um but I’m sure you know what the right answer is anyway and it is

mid-journey oh a few people said end game interesting interesting

is that the top now yep not AI still there um I can’t see those times because my zoom window is in the way oh you’re

three seconds ahead Patrick AI so um it looks like the humans are beating the actual AI at the moment so that’s a I

think that’s a good thing right question four London devots has been running since

2014 but how many meetups have we run to date is it seven

is it six is it 67 or 76.

five seconds left get your answers in and boom

it is 76 and I don’t think anyone’s been to every single one of them but there’s a there’s

a few people we see a lot which is great well done 86 of you got that right

so ladies and gentlemen uh forgive me part of the interruption but I have to go as well uh but I just wanted to again

thank you for the opportunity to speak to your group and again I just threw my email there in the chat box if anyone

wants to get in touch with me I’d be happy to do so uh but I wish you a very pleasant August and the rest of your

summer folks hopefully we can do this again thanks brilliant contribution thank you so much Joel enjoy the rest of

your afternoon cheers okay

not AI forging ahead oh and yeah Patrick a hour has descended the uh the

leaderboard there because I think you might have got that one wrong we forgive you we forgive you not in London

uh number five which of these is a quote from the lawyer who uh Joel was talking about Stephen Schwartz what’s it I did

not comprehend that chat GPT could fabricate cases or was it the same thing lawyers

Witnesses or cake I wish I had an AI to bring me cake

that would be a win okay faces is the answer there

although I still haven’t had my uh my apricot yogurt from Jack’s house yet so

maybe I’ll just get straight to the cake so there we go congratulations to not AI

whoever you are um can you please message me either on meetup.com

um or via LinkedIn I’m sure you can find me if we’re not already connected um with your

um well first of all actually Mr not AI or sorry or Miss not IO what urgent you are

um if you’re there um are you able to come off mute and just say if you’re in the UK or not

hey uh sorry

they didn’t no one hear that because I didn’t no

that’s better now can you repeat that yeah sorry no no I’m not in UK I’m in uh

Netherlands not in the UK in the Netherlands so never mind well congratulations well

done for winning the quiz unfortunately I can’t sing the books of the Netherlands um so let’s uh let’s move on to uh Chris

are you there are you in the UK yeah hi I’m in the UK

you’re in the UK excellent excellent so yes if you can find me on meetup.com

um or LinkedIn um and um send me your address and I’ll remind you of which books when we get in

contact I’ll remind you of the book choices we have so you can choose one of the three O’Reilly books um for the giveaway

um well and also to forward and uh Andreas is that you Mr Heisenberg I remember you one time no see it is

excellent excellent hope to see you soon man good to see you

oh okay so that’s that um we’re all over from for London devops for tonight

um just remains for me to do a little bit of uh admin um number one

um our next Meetup is featuring um Patrick who has performed such a brilliant

um contributary um role in both of the virtual meetups so far we thank you so much for that uh

hopes are now high for your talk I was just going ahead on September the 5th that’s gonna be uh yeah so about four

weeks probably four weeks today something like that uh after everyone’s been on holiday uh so yeah really

looking forward to that uh thank you very much to uh to Mark to Shannon and

to Joel for a brilliant uh brilliant talk um as I said when you come when somebody comes to you

and says yeah yeah we’re not gonna have slides and you’re like hang on what’s this going to turn out like and yeah I I

thought it was really really awesome and I hope you did too um please send us feedback on how you thought it went if you enjoyed it if you

didn’t enjoy it anything you want us to change Etc um massive thanks to our sponsors I see

Aries just go on to video there um so yeah thank you again uh to J frog and to all over other sponsors and yeah

I think that’s about it um enjoy August everybody hope you’ve enjoyed this meet up we’ll see you soon

and uh thank you for coming cheers

thanks Matt yeah

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