Upside Down @JChampions Conference 2022

January 25, 2022

< 1 min read

At JChampionsConference 2022, Ixchel Ruiz share her thought-provoking talk. A new understanding of disruptive change is just one of several lessons we learned in the past two years. A tough one, that left us disoriented but open to improvement. This new world has challenges of its own.

Creativity, resiliency, and flexibility went from desired skills to minimum requirements in a new world where adaptation is the new rule.

This new paradigm demands we have strong, responsive, proactive, healthy teams. In the last 15 years, there have been several attempts to create diverse and inclusive teams, we need to double those efforts for the sake of new generations.


Ixchel Ruiz

Developer Advocate @ JFrog

Ixchel is a Developer Advocate @JFrog. She has developed software applications & tools since 2000. Her research interests include Java, dynamic languages, client-side technologies, DevOps, and testing. Java Champion, Oracle Groundbreaker Ambassador, SuperFrog, Hackergarten enthusiast, Open Source advocate, public speaker, and mentor. Travels around the world ( sometimes virtually ) because sharing knowledge is one of her main drives in life!

Video Transcript

hi and welcome to the j champions
conference for 2022 my name is josh juno
and i’ll be moderating this next session
entitled upside out and our speaker is
michelle ruiz and please feel free to
use the chat feature to ask questions
during the session uh they’ll be
answered throughout and at the end of
the session as well and with that i’ll
go ahead and hand it over
thank you josh i’m super happy of being
upside down
i cannot stress
how difficult the last few years have
the fact that we’re here and not in
person is a reflection of a new reality
that seems to be here to stay
but before we go into the topic uh the
least interesting slide of my slide ache
i hope is this one
my name is xiao reads i’m from mexico i
live in switzerland
am a champion i work for a company
called jfrog
we have a surprise for you if you want
to enter a raffle we are raffling a
nintendo switch so you can scan that
uh or go to that webpage and you can
enter the raffle so good luck
so again
back to the topic
we have encountered so many challenges
so many things have gone in the
direction that we didn’t expect
and at some point we kind of felt
that everything was
upside down
but we cannot only blame covet 19
recovery 20 or copy 21 now
about that
we have had already challenges extremely
big challenges with dire consequences
like climate change
fires all around the world
but this
this point in time
a global pandemic met
with our already
show us the cracks
in our society
i it’s not only the physical
i for example
the people that are
haven’t suffered coveted so far but just
being in a lockdown or under so much
stress we have seen an increase in heart
depression of young people that have
thought about suicide has
sometimes tripled
in the last year
we have had problems with our eyes
i mean for example working from home
means that we have a lot of time
watching or focusing on the screen
and this actually makes us
blink less like five times less
we had had so many effects
by this new change reality
and i’m not only talking about the
effects of people
that have suffered coverage and
are still living with the long-lasting
that goes from
to heart
as i said
we have been under so much stress
for so long
so the quantity
and the type of stress has
created a situation where our bodies
are more prone to different kind of
health issues
we are also not able to cope
with the same levels
stress and pressure
that we did before
in our world
we also discovered that our systems were
so intertwined
to the level of
so our
chains of manufacturing
were very
direct we knew who our suppliers were
but we didn’t know and we didn’t have
clarity about what were our different or
more than in-depth levels of suppliers
so we didn’t know who our supplier
supplier was we didn’t know who were our
consul the other other clients of our
so for example in the chip industry
at the beginning the automotive industry
decided that maybe during this pandemic
with people in their houses there was
not going to be
demand for cars so they decided to stop
the production lines
at that moment
one of the
most important parts it was microchip so
they stopped
the lines that is stopped
all these orders
uh industries began
build more like for example new laptops
entertainment consoles playstations
began to ramp up their production
more people inside their homes met more
demand for this kind of products by the
time the automotive industry realized
that they
their projections were not accurate
actually the demand of
transport or cars went up because people
were less inclined to use public
transportation another issue there
so when they started to open their
production line they discovered that the
transportation system was already having
some effects
on this
scarcity issue that we all have seen
what did we realize
first of all
we don’t have any specific woofer for
some of our
most important
that there are links between our systems
that we are not aware of
that is not easily or easy to verify at
at the beginning or during even
we cannot predict and we don’t react
quite easily
in the transportation industry we had
and we still are facing some troubles in
the ports we don’t have enough
work in the ports to unload
some of these further products
and this is only doesn’t mean it’s
in the recipient part of our production
chain this also means for example
that some of these
transportation lines have decided to
alter reduce or expand their routes
meaning that sometimes people with their
products cannot deliver
uh to their customers even though they
still have their products at hand
their clients are still needing them
we are not reacting we are not
able to
uh we are not reacting correctly we are
missing a lot of cues
we are not
making our system more resilient and
this is a topic that we speak a lot in
our industry how to make more the system
for resilience
another factor that was really
interesting and really important in our
in our world that is still even more
evident as a ford security
between climate change supply chains
we have seen that our food security has
been reduced
we are
not producing
what is needed when is needed and we are
not delivering to the people that
that really needs needs it
this in turn has created and eroded our
social welfare
in significant ways all around the world
in different countries and in different
social groups
don’t spend a lot of time in this
because what i’m bringing you it’s bad
and sometimes we really try to avoid
hearing about them we really try to
more bad news
from entering our small small bubbles
and our minds
i would love
to give you some hope to tell you that
we are at the end of all
this problems
covet will be a thing of the past
that we are
going to make
enormous progress in climate change
cascading effects of all these problems
that we are
we have been facing and we will continue
to face
will somehow
but i can’t
kreta has this phrase when we start to
hope is everywhere
so instead of
looking for hope
we should
look for action
and after that
hope will come
and this is exactly
i want us to have
a clear
or maybe not so clear idea of what we
can do what are the actions that we can
to save the world
but this ideas have to be
good ones
that move us
in the right direction
help us
and overcome our challenges
that provide the correct or the most fit
and i love this phrase of margaret have
merman from when she’s talking about
social capital she actually says that
and more specifically the great ones
a little bit of a child is born kind of
messy and confused but full of
and it is only through the generous
contribution fate and challenge that
they achieve their potential
and this is the part that is crucial
they need generous contribution
to achieve their potential
we always need
the right
we always need to listen
i can guarantee you
the best ideas
hasn’t or weren’t born perfect
they had to evolve
they have to have to have been
by sometimes only speaking out in a
with different perspectives but with
those miracles
of enrichment
can happen
and sometimes it’s not only to
create a better idea sometimes it’s just
make us realize that maybe
what we hold
what we define as the absolute truth out
maybe it’s not it
maybe it’s just an illusion
that we believe
so how do we challenge our own beliefs
how do we enrich our own ideas
how do we help
to build
creativity process or to develop this
creativity process that we all need
to solve
problems and to face new challenges
this is where
this specific topic
comes to
diversity and inclusion has been
uh a new transit a very intrinsic part
of my life
i’m a software developer i have been
a server-side developer for most of my
life i was linux enthusiast
many many years ago so i was
this kind of teenager that will
recompile and skirt the kernel of their
help other students to install
the basic versions or the most early
versions of linux
i don’t have to tell you
is to see women still at conferences or
as speakers in our java community
uh so
one of my promises to myself is whenever
i present in a conference i always send
two kind of
of of um
proposals one is a technical one and the
other one is a diversity and inclusion
but when i was faced with creating the
diversity inclusion session i noticed
that this is not about a gender only
this is about
how we are all different because we have
a different background we have a
different story we come from different
different beliefs
like when people ask me what is your
experience uh your your professional
experience and like do you want the
perspective of a mexican having lived in
the us and now working in switzerland
with german swiss and german-speaking
do you want the version of a woman
involved in community and sharing
so or do you want the the perspective of
a conference organizer that has to
look for new topics into their sessions
and reach as many developers as she can
so this is me and and all those
perspectives were given by my
by my background
and like me i have met
developers around the world
that have the most interesting
passionate sometimes stories about how
they are
in the tech world
and how they are end up where they are
so diversity is a given
you only have to talk to a fellow
developer in our industry
our industry allows remote work our
industry is so much in demand
that our colleagues
usually from other countries
other cultures
so it is a fact in our industry am i
happy for that
what is not so common in our industry is
why inclusion is more difficult than
finding diversity or understanding
diversity or celebrating diversity
because inclusion means a
mindset change
we need to start understanding
to recognize
the different
or the same feeling or the same
in orders
this topic of diversity inclusion and
the different
levels of diversity
it’s not new i mean i’m super happy that
we are
listening to these topics
more frequent
and we are looking actively to for
people that comes and talks
to us about this
and increase the awareness
but for example
a similar session
in 2016 i that i gave at
one event devoxx
devoxx uk
don’t quote me on that i’m terrible with
memory but let’s continue so in this
particular session i was talking about
uh for example different
papers or different studies about how
the difference the the different
dimensions of diversity had a precise
and measurable
effect on the revenues of
for example this one that i totally
recommend you to to read is the mix of
material this was a study of 171
germans with an austrian companies and
this was around 2016. so this is way
before goldman sachs
introduced their policies
and about
only investing or or
rating better
companies that had in their board of
directors are most diverse
and this is even before all this
uh had an impact about
other other studies
where it was heavily criticized it was
there a correlational conversation
how diverse the board of director was
towards the increase in revenue of the
different companies so this is this was
before that
my point here is regardless if is
correlation or calculation there is a
positive relationship between a
diversity even at the levels of both of
directors to the levels of managers
and to the levels of the people in in
our case in our industry of development
that have this
diverse backgrounds
because diverse backgrounds as i said
provide us with different perspectives
and when we have different perspectives
we can
highlight a problem we can propose a new
we can
and appreciate difference more easily
because nobody thinks in the same way
nobody is inspired by the same way
this actually helps us
generate creativity
will generate creative ideas new ideas
that we need
the whole idea
is not a new one
let’s bring more people more people
let’s listen to them
more people let’s expand our pool
we will have
a better outcome
but it’s not so simple i mean for
example this paper from 2005
uh starts discussing why diversity in
groups is so difficult to achieve
and they basically point to two
they say that when you have an a terror
uh group um because of how humans behave
we trying to create this kind of
in groups and out groups
we and that’s true
when we are created in a specific group
identify with them we create ceremonies
we create even our language culture and
we are
not so welcoming when a
person is coming to us that it looks and
behaves a little bit different so
in similarity attraction part they
when you have a very a terror genius
group you will have this out member
distrust and that will
that will result in poor communication
low cohesion and decrease on moral and
team performance
but what they are not saying us there is
that it doesn’t matter how good your
team is like
well educated
economic social background they have if
they are very similar
we will have an echo chamber
will be
focusing and receiving feedback of the
small size of the pond
we are not
bringing anything new we are not
creating the space or the opportunity to
listen to something that maybe it’s
and on the other side of the coin we
have the value and diversity
so their proposal is that when you bring
different people or people with diverse
different diverse
backgrounds or the diverse dimension as
i said is
economical gender socio-political
it’s not only gender again it’s not only
gender what i’m referring here
so what we are creating is more
opportunities for people to bring more
information and skills and networks
and because we
uh behave a little bit different we
talked a little bit different
what we need is to establish
an environment where candor is easy
where candor exists
where we can express
our opinions and we can
reach consensus
we have these two ideas
two arguments and this is only um an
example of the different
ideas about diversity and teams
like yes but it’s difficult yes or no
because um
yes it’s important because it increase
our pool of talent skills
and and solutions no because it’s
difficult and it can create some
negative impacts
let me bring another perspective
try inspired by the success of the goal
there’s another project called the
project oxygen
where the people analytics teams
started what make a great manager
they actually apply
some metrics they interview a lot of
managers they saw their
performance or they defined the goals
that which make a good manager a great
manager a manager a great manager and so
they develop this
kind of recipes or key ingredients but
then that’s why they actually apply the
same methodology
to teams
so google has spent two years studying
more than 180 teams
made more than 200 interviews and
to 200 different
and analyze as many attributes
they recruited organizational
psychologists sociologists engineers
to resolve this riddle
because obviously every single company
wants to have their a team
so when they interview the managers and
ask how do we create our a team how do
we create our perfect teams
so there was a lot of ideas out there
some that said that we need to create
people oil teams
where we have the superstars if we have
the superstars team then for sure we
will have the best results of outcomes
others thought that
we have this teams of people that have
the same
the same hobbies the same interest and
then cohesion and communication was
going to be easier
and even
they were continue working or
being engaged even after hours because
they share some kind of passion
so at the end of the day what turns out
to be interesting is that
the who
was not as important as the
the team behaved
this goes into i don’t know if you have
heard and i totally recommend you to
listen to
super chicken by margaret heffernan
where she explains how having this
superstar superb that the team of most
performant in this case chicken
actually is
most negative at the end of the
experiment that having this
team make of
standard or regular chickens
came up after all these two years
different studies a lot of metrics
interviews and on
communication with their teams
that there were five important keys into
teams and how teams should behave or
what should they have for example they
should there should be um psychological
a structure and clarity
meaning of work
and impact of work
so what
google does in
when they have teams that still apply
this particular way of working the
aristotle project they have this
and they have to fill out from time to
time to manage the health of their teens
and i think we should because we all
belong to teams we should take uh the
opportunity to answer these questions in
our themes
and if for some reason we don’t find or
we find ourselves answering no
or hesitant about this particular topics
we should raise our hands
these are pillars of how
a team
or what a team needs to be a good team
and i will go into
um one specific key aspect
that at the time when i first read this
i was surprised because i didn’t know i
hope you know and this is not the first
time that you are introduced to this
particular topic but if not well
to know
it’s psychological safety
in this particular study
um by
amy edmundson
she defines and she actually
defines what psychological safety and
what is the difference between trust
trust they are very close
by the way but trust is a relationship
that we
have between two individuals
and trust is very
uh goes very very in hand-in-hand with
what i explained before
when we are in a group we
form this inner culture
see ourselves reflected in orders and
when you see somebody reflected like you
either physically or
previous experiences
you kind of
think or you kind of form this idea that
you know how that person is going to
and it’s going to be very similar how
you’re going to react
so you are forming this
between the two of all of you
when you have this relationship that is
giving you
the courage to do something or because
you know how the other person is going
to react
so when you trust somebody is because
you know that that person is going to
give you
feedback and it’s going to be a pos well
not a positive feedback in terms of
you’re only going to listen to the
positive things no it’s going to be a
value and
an insightful
constructive feedback from that person
or you can predict how that person is
going to react when you
execute a specific
psychological safety is something
this is not a relationship between two
persons this is more an environment
so this is an environment when you have
this sense of
you can speak up
you can interact
you can
voice concerns ask questions or
that you don’t know the answer you are
lacking some
information or you don’t have the
abilities or capacities
again trust
is between two individuals is usually
based on our capacity of relate
and see ourselves reflected on the other
psychological safety is a relationship
that is
created or
in an environment where you feel
secure safe
to boys concerns as questions point out
errors mainly
so how do we get or how do we promote
psychological safety well in this paper
amy goes into telling us what are the
positive states that we need to have so
this is basically from the
lead perspective but also as a member of
the team
so we need to be available when
approachable that’s important
you we need to invite input and feedback
we need to be open
uh to our own fallibility we need to
start by saying i’m not perfect i’m i’m
wrong i’m human
by expressing vulnerability we can’t
reduce some of the barriers
created by status differences
when we hear
comment or
input from other parts of our team
we need to reassure
our colleagues or our team members that
there were there is no there is not
going to be any harm to their reputation
if there is a negative
traditional we will consider fit
response on their part
we need to have practice fields
context support and be aware of emerging
this paper actually is situated in the
health care industry more more specific
in hospitals
so they described like this two
different hospitals
had um their perspectives into
psychological safety on one hand
um there was this hospital that was very
very interested on
practicing and there was this
traditional one that didn’t
and the practice fields was um
a point when they described for example
in new procedures
surgeons from the hospital
that didn’t have psychological safety
could join
a new operation team
without even met them before
and even when there was a new procedure
to be
executed or to be done
for the first time
in the psychological safety environments
what you have is when you are facing new
non-tested or non
standard procedures and what they do is
in the practice fields it’s dry runs
so first of all they try to simulate
what is going to happen in case during
this execution there is a mistake it is
important that
there is
the first assessment of of the people
involved there saying
we made a mistake and this is a mistake
by highlighting that during this
dry runs or in this sandbox environment
it is easy to
and create this kind of environment
where you can point it out
the other example that is also in this
paper is really interesting is how
nurses were able to
contest or ask questions to the resident
doctors about
dosage or
the drugstore they are where they were
administering to their patients so as
you see
sometimes um
this kind of situations have our
life or that kind of situation so i was
telling my husband
if i ever go to a hospital and i ask one
of the nurses do you know
something about psychological safety do
you have like
and they answer no
i don’t want to be there i don’t
the other thing that should be is
context support um
we need to provide
all the tools
that are needed for all our team members
to deliver
the best
work that they can
so and this is particularly important
right now during kobe dine most of all
is working from home and sometimes in
setups that were not thought for working
from home for example from
network connections to
cameras to laptops
to security devices
even to the rooms
that we need now to share with our
family members
so this all that is happening in how we
can relate with our team members
and how these are affecting our work
and one of the things that um
the author remind us is that we need to
very very aware that there are emerging
dynamics in every team
and that we are
participating in or being part of
we need to recognize them and avoid or
diminish their influence for example
there’s always or there now there is
always there is
that’s not true but that may be
some kind of dynamics appearing in the
team like a father a mother favorite son
so when the favorite song expresses an
idea suddenly is the best idea ever but
when the black ship of the family is
expressing the same idea nobody cares
because it’s the black ship of the
family so we need to realize that that
happens even in the best things and we
need to counteract them with different
strategies for example
the person that is the author of an idea
shouldn’t be the one championing the
idea so we we could um
separate the championing from the author
of the idea so we prevent this kind of
the favorite son of daughter
uh proposed idea so it’s going to win
for whatever reason and the black ship’s
idea is not going to win because it’s a
blockchain so
by understanding not to think and
acknowledging we can do something about
by only introducing these five factors
into any of them
get um
better behaviors health seeking feedback
we enable people to speak up about
errors and concern
we create an environment where their
innovative behavior is present and
innovation can happen
and let’s remember creativity is a
self-reform expression so we won’t have
the best ideas we won’t have the
innovative ideas if we cannot express
them we cannot help develop them in a
better way there is another really nice
um about the secrets of great teamwork
this is from
the hardware business review but what
they are talking about here is the
um richard hackman who was an
organizational behavior specialist that
during the 1970s
studies i studied how to
talk how to create
good teams and teamwork
so in more than 40 years he uncovered
what we need to thrive
air is enabled conditions so yes
we need
uh collaboration we need to know our
personalities attitudes we need to have
behavioral styles but we also need to
have enabled conditions so the enabled
conditions that hackman is championing
is for example have compelling direction
strong structure
supportive context and shared mindset
so direction we all need to know where
we’re going why we’re going why does it
matter in a structure we need to have
clear rules how do we behave in this
thing what is not acceptable it’s not
acceptable to
be impolite in a in a merged west it is
not acceptable to have a merge request
13 lines of codes and have more than 100
on the merch request it is not
acceptable to say
how could you not know
those are really interesting
shared mindset we need even though we
are the friend we come from different
backgrounds we have different roles in
our team we have to all identify we are
part of this team and this is our goal
and this is our identity
so as you can see uh
psychological safety what is important
to have it in all environments what is
the negative impact is we are lacking of
touch for example in the hospital or in
the healthcare industry
and how do we
benefit even in our industry in in
developing teams in those in the
software development
industry with software development teams
we have very very
overlapping ideas
we need to have a strong structure with
clear rules we need to have the same
the same kind of goals the structure and
clarity and we have to have
psychological safety
but the other side of the coin is
i am
i bring myself into a team
and i
are a combination of what
of my personality traits my story my
and who i am
well of course it’s important to
the rest of the team but it’s also
important to myself
so i recommend you to
take some personality tests if you
haven’t done it but probably you have
heard of myers-briggs this is the most
common one when you are applying for a
new job etc etc but i actually suggest
you to use your ocean or the big five
because this one uh it’s more
translatable to different cultures i
mean the kind of questions can be more
related to different languages and
backgrounds in terms of cultural
backgrounds and i have my
own opinion about myers and breaks
so diverse ocean
it stands for openness conscientiousness
extroversion agreeable and neuroticism
and their counterparts these are
spectrums and maybe you are very aware
extrovert and introvert because this was
very popularized
for many years
and one of the important things well
there are several important things but
one that catches my ad is that
we don’t
we it’s not like a binary
we it this is in a spectrum and we may
have a certain degree on introversion
that or where maybe we are in the middle
or we can bury depending on war
circumstances that’s another thing that
it’s important that
we should mention while personality test
our personality
evolves through time and evolves through
our context and new
experiences that we faced
so let’s start
openness to experience is how
willing we are to try new things and
people that are scored highly on this
usually are very creative have mental
and they are statistically more
intelligent conscientiousness
um goal directing behavior once it has
been defined uh on a specific set of
tasks people that score really high on
will follow through
in my personal
experience i have worked with people
like show this kind of behaviors because
of their culture for example my
my german colleagues are usually very
goal-directed behaviors and they usually
need the action items and the key
extroversion we know this very
like this is part of our culture
it turns out that
we individuals have a different need of
social contact and this is actually at
the level of the brain so
there are people that get more
stimulated by the energy of the
environment and there are others that
we are how eager we are to be
accepted to be included
how do we
establish relationships how fast we can
do that how how easy or how difficult to
for us to do
neuroticism this had such bad press in
the past
but now there’s a lot of studies that
are bringing neuroticism where people
that actually score very high
neuroticism saying that
this is actually really good for for
example managers because there is the
people that are always under promising
and over delivering
one of the reasons that i’m talking
about ocean is because infoq has this
this really really interesting article
about how personality matters in
software development
because this is what i was trying to
tell you since the beginning how we
create a team
that has diverse
that can leverage all our differences in
other dimensions
of diversity economical background
cultural gender even
is by creating
this synergy between our
best traits best personality traits to
cover all what is needed in a group team
for example we always need a a developer
in our theme that is willing to try the
newest tool there that is super excited
that it’s always sell telling us this is
going to solve all our problems but we
also need the the our colleague that is
focusing is we have we cover all our
bases are we sure that this is actually
fulfilling all our requirements are we
sure that the documentation that it’s
mature enough et cetera et cetera
so we also need people that like to
to create this sense of team that it’s
talking to everybody it’s making sure
that the information is traveling
in a good way in our team
we also need
our colleague that it’s always thinking
about all the things that can go wrong
in every single release
and thanks to that colleague we usually
catch all the problems ahead of time
our personality traits will make us
excellent at some things
but will also make us liable to some
to some
preferences for example an introvert is
not going to be
very enthusiastic about
very enthusiastic about speaking
at meetings
so we need to understand
who we are and who the other person is
to make our relationship work
so it’s not about yes yes let’s feel
different let’s create an environment
where where we can express our
difference what we can bring what what
we are who we are but it’s also
i know that you are
and i value what you’re bringing
but i also know that you require me
to behave in this matter and the same
applies to you
can we change yes of course we can
change can we act out of character yes
of course we do because of love and job
we usually are able to act out of
but if we do this for long periods of
times or very frequently we are in the
risk of burning out
understand who you are
accept who you are understand who the
other person is and accept the other
person and try let’s meet in the middle
so what i’m talking here about is
let’s allow ourselves to see
with new eyes what we have where we are
and be more open
and collaborate
more easy
take the time
and sometimes it’s just free
sometimes it’s just to
that we are not
the center
of the
world that
we are not the metric
as i said
just because i can do it doesn’t mean
that you can’t
and i shouldn’t expect you to be able to
do it and vice versa just because you
can do it that doesn’t mean i can do it
and you should respect that
thank you very much
as i said we had from jfrog we have a
raffle and if you want to
enter it this is your moment to scan
that it’s a nintendo switch
so if there are any questions i’m more
than happy
to take them
thank you michelle it was a great
topic and a great uh presentation lots
of great concepts there
and uh
it seems that lots of people are
thinking about your
presentation and there is not
i don’t have a lot of questions coming
out of the audience but we
certainly have lots of people thanking
you for the awesome talk
oh thank you yes yes i see jasper over
there so yes well thank you very much if
you like your the the
the presentation i’m more than happy as
i said
this is a topic that i hold super dear
to my heart
because this is not about gender this is
about diversity this is about the self
we are all different
indeed here we do have a question what
advice do you
what advice do you have for
organizations that want to improve their
psychological safety
in their environment
so for me is i’m a developer so first of
all measure like why why what is
prompting this is there any specific um
point from different teams
they are feeling that it’s not there
do you have already established some of
of the structures there are a lot of
questionnaires out there
for born out for psychological safety
that i can totally ping me in my my
twitter and i can send you all the
material i have there are questioners
that will tell you where you are and how
can you move forward there is totally
that material out there but first of all
you need to know where you are or what
from this idea of improving
i don’t know if that answers your
thank you
yeah i believe it made made sense
i just put up a couple of the
oh kirk
yes yes the last years in isolation um
have created a lot of stress and this
feeling of loneliness we we really need
to go back to normal in in different
settings oh yes
well thank you very much thank you very
much josh for for being
such a gracious host and thank you very
much for everybody else that was at the
thank you everyone