DevOps for Developers (or maybe against them?!) @ DevOps Talks Conference (Sydney)

September 6, 2022

2 min read

DevOps for developers (or maybe against them?!)

“DevOps” is the operations people’s crafty plan to make developers do other people’s work, but we are smart enough to see right through this naive rebranding trick!

Baruch suggests you think about it: we, the developers, have written all the code. It passes all the tests; it obviously works, and works well (Are we a little proud? We are!); so we are DONE.

Now, out of the blue, a bunch of “thought leaders” (all with an operations background, mind you!) are trying to tell us that we have to learn YAML, Docker, Kubernetes and Terraform to deploy our software because suddenly it is our concern?!

In this talk, we’ll discuss why developers do or don’t need DevOps. We’ll consider arguments made by DevOps visionaries and see whether they hold water. Hopefully, by the end of the talk, we’ll understand whether DevOps really helps developers to deploy better code to production more often, or if it is just another scam made up by marketing and evangelists.

This is a fun and provocative talk. I am starting by claiming that developers have no incentives to do any DevOps and will work my way to explain why; although there is some truth in that, it doesn’t matter. The business must commit to DevOps, and once the business is committed, everyone has to be on board.

Baruch Sadogursky
Principal Developer Advocate, JFrog

Baruch Sadogursky (@jbaruch) did Java before it had generics, DevOps before there was Docker, and DevRel before it had a name. He started DevRel at JFrog when it was ten people and took it all the way to a successful $6B IPO by helping engineers solve problems. Now Baruch keeps helping engineers solve problems but also helps companies help engineers solve problems. He is a co-author of the “Liquid Software” and “DevOps Tools for Java Developers” books, serves on multiple conference program committees, and regularly speaks at numerous most prestigious industry conferences, including Kubecon, JavaOne (RIP), Devoxx, QCon, DevRelCon, DevOpsDays (all over), DevOops (not a typo) and others.

View Slides Here


Baruch Sadogursky

Developer Advocate @JFrog

Baruch Sadogursky (a.k.a JBaruch) is the Head of Developer Relations and a Developer Advocate at JFrog. His passion is speaking about technology. Well, speaking in general, but doing it about technology makes him look smart, and 18 years of hi-tech experience sure helps. When he’s not on stage (or on a plane to get there), he learns about technology, people and how they work, or more precisely, don’t work together. He is a CNCF ambassador, Developer Champion, and a professional conference speaker on DevOps, DevSecOps, Go, Java and many other topics, and is a regular at the industry’s most prestigious events including DockerCon, GopherCon, Devoxx, DevOps Days, OSCON, Qcon, JavaOne and many others. You can see some of his talks at

Video Transcript

all right let’s introduce our oh she left brock she looked she’s good

okay okay all right no need to chase her it’s all right she’s still here

all right just while barack gets set up here uh i’d like to introduce our final speaker today it gives me great pleasure

uh to introduce the head of devops advocacy at jfrog it sounds amazing actually it does it’s i have no idea

what it means that’s okay yeah that’s the thing with the head right it can mean whatever

just add means what does it mean it’s a manager i have no idea

and i will say that your talk today is on devops for developers or maybe against them well we’ll figure

it out yeah we’ll see we’ll see all right i’m all set nope i’m not saying yeah hang on we’re gonna know i’m

getting the note from the agent no no we’re gonna unplug and plug back in here i’m plugging plug back there we go i can

do it is it dangerous do you mind i can do it um [Music]


yeah we’re good amazing we’re good all right excellent thank you 30 minutes that’s fine okay

last session i can take whatever and welcome to the graveyard shift

last session of the day you all made it thank you very much for sticking with me oh i forgot the most

important attraction anyway imagine i’m holding a nintendo switch box

and it can be yours and whoever left early actually missing out your chances of winning going up

after this talk is done we are all going to go to the general booth when we are going to ruffle the nintendo switch and

you see it’s good at leaving left because now you can win the nintendo switch amazing so yeah but this is after

for now i’m going to now you know why to stay so i can take my time

right like i think maybe an hour we’ll see we’ll see how it goes all right so

we’re going to talk about devops for developers a show hands uh does it work

show hands yes no maybe no clicker technology is hard ah here we go

how many of you are developers oh hello okay that was a demos

conference i expected none of you will be here i’m going to talk dirty about developers so now i can’t

okay now it’s actually awesome because you know what

uh you’re here at the devil’s okay that was how many of you are developing who thinks they know what devops is

i have five hands all right nice nice well don’t feel bad no one knows your devil

including ignoring people who are actually working devops they have no idea what the hell says um

uh i’m going to tell you you are in luck you see it’s good if you stayed after this session you are going

to know what devops is uh my name is baruch sodorsky and my official title is chief sticker officer i’ve been with

jeffrook so long i cannot come up with my own titles bring my own business cards and no one can tell me anything

that’s my real business card and it actually is appealable sticker because chief sticker officer um

head of devops advocacy principal developer advocate call it whatever i just

talk about devops and giveaway stickers and the most important part on this is

my twitter handle um but it’s actually on every slide that’s kind of a hint

you know what you know more useful stuff up on the bottom of every slide is

actually this let’s see if this thing works oh it did it did it did

up really there we go and no no

it doesn’t work all right that’s a bummer j barrow slash show notes that’s a page where you go there you will see

tons of content the top most content will be a page about this talk

right it will have the slides already there the video if i tap all the right

buttons if not you will have to wait until the official video and the links about everything that i

talk about here and more prizes you see how good you stayed um i had an honor of

co-writing a book called liquid software about liquid software intriguing yes

and with jeff co-founders fred simon and you are longman and you have a very good chance

of winning this book if you go to sorry jaybar slash

right also in the bottom of every slide very easy

okay so your developers a lot of you most of you i’m a developer or used to

be back in long long time ago i was a java developer and look

i still have a hoodie to prove it right no one would give me a hoodie when it wasn’t the developer right this is how

it works they actually check that’s right okay so yeah so but now but

i’m working jfrog the devil’s company so i’m kind of on both sides of this divide

that we call demos or is it a divide never mind we’ll see

and i’m going to prove to you all today the devops

is a plot of operations people to make us

the developers work harder and do their job

i have proofs i’ll start with

proving you that ops people came up with devops

and then i’ll tell you why so first of all dev ops people came with devops

how do we know it doesn’t work again ah that was people did that right

the most important book about devops called the phoenix project who read the phoenix project

not enough you should read it awesome book really and it’s uh actually it’s a non-fiction

it’s a novel very interesting highly no sarcasm highly recommended

this is the most important book about devops let’s see who are the main characters we don’t

need to read it all we just need to look at the cover and here they are penny mckee director of it service support

she’s in wes davis director of distributed technology ops like ops

um svp of retail ops it’s fine also again um ceo cio okay

um cfo fine all right this guy bill palmer he is the

protagonist the whole book about build inventing devops and then winning with them who is

bill ops guy he’s the vp of mighty obs of course he’s removed and then there is a

board um member oh here is very very smart guy that kind

of also very very awesome he’s a lead system administrator he’s an ops

and then we have the information security guy anyway

who is not here [Laughter]

right now there are developers in the book not pictured in the best light i will

tell you their picture is those lazy busters that write code and then go home not caring

about what happened after they finish their job and they say like it’s a bad thing

anyway the second most important book about devops called the devil’s handbook and for understanding again to prove my

point that devops is an ops people plot look at the authors of the democrat

drinking jazz humble patrick dubois john wiens the fathers of devils amazing

people my friends really great great people

what’s their background we already spoke about the first one the first one was jin kim jin kim is the author of the

phoenix project and by now we know everything there is to know about him let’s look at the others so jazz rumble

patrick blah he invented the term devops actually and he is a system architect

which is like a very obvious position jess humble actually

deputy director of delivery architecture he came up with the term continuous delivery

he is all about ops about delivery and then john willis my dear friend he was

just for example people of services is a company called ops code i mean seriously

more obvious than that like very very nice

exhibit c let’s see who teaches us what devops is so type

what is devops in google let’s see who teaches us what is levels

so first new rank observability platform obviously ops

then um but you know ops

um co-op net they have some dev resources so that’s an exception but everything else the agile admin

and win more than that um wikipedia fine atlassian the devops company

and then microsoft azure yet another devops platform and then in the bottom of the logs io they are observability

logs and stuff some ops amazing stuff so in any way

by now you obviously know that when you hear devops

it’s actually ops people trying to tell to sell you something right now let’s say what now let’s see what

they are trying to sell you why they came up with all these dev

stuff and what do they want from us so i remember i

promised you you will know what is demos by the end of this session we go to quara when we want to know stuff and we

ask questions like how do i switch my job from system admin to devops and then there is um very respectable

devops specialists who come like for with tons of experience who will explain

to you what devops is so basically they’re going to say well learn some linux well we are ops people

we know linux learns about computing well we ops people we know on cloud computing dance fundamentals software

development life cycle and then just buy a bunch of tools for example gits

so basically if you are a system administrator and you learn git this is how you become a devops engineer

and it actually sounds like a very very good financial move

because when you used to be a system administrator that was your salary and

then you learn gifts and then next thing you know

you have 50 more money which is nice for learning kids

and you know what you’re in demand look at that devops engineers everybody needs devops

engineers like like a lot and this is where you are in luck

because devops engineering whatever it is which is system administration plus

gifts is where the money is look at that certifications galore

you can be now a certified devops engineer they will check that you know gigs

and bank in any way it looks like we found

why people want to do demos because money

but it’s not true it’s not true because back in the day

when devops started novel actually knew that there will be money indeed

there is some other hidden reason why develops exist what’s going on with the

material here we go this reason is right here

you probably know this diagram it’s called the devops infinity

cycle and some of you may actually recognize

it being a developer this looks familiar and that looks very very similar to

something else we know it looks like that

and this is something that we as developers do plant design developed test release feedback

but with all the ops concerns added right into it

so they took everything we do and then they took everything they do

and they attach them together and then hey now do this

you want more proof i have more proof state of devops report here are my there

there were people sitting right there happy that i’m going to mention dora have no idea what

what about to hit them right so this is an old one for a reason

2018 what four years ago there are three since then but let’s look at the old one first and

then we will go into a new one so what is

what are the concerns of state of depth of the industry

what are we going to measure when we want to measure develops

let’s see deployment frequency

everything that happens after the code is ready ops

limit time for changes which changes whatever happens after we go from code

further the changes that they mean are actually ops changes not really dev

changes time to restore service this is like here we go entirely into ops unplanned

outage i’m a developer i don’t have outages

degraded service what my code does what i cannot type my server is better rated

i’m an author i don’t have service right okay another very very important um

part of the um dora report time spent and you can see here that

elite uh spends much more time in new work than low which spend more time in

reworking and and doing like fixing stuff makes sense right i’m completely

on board new work is where the money is the real question is how do we define

work buckle up let’s talk about what consists work

for the devops people well there are

planned work which is business projects and new features sound generic we can buy into it yes we do new features in

code obviously but then the fun begins internal projects server migrations software updates and

so on what what my internal projects are writing code

not migrating services or servers changes driven by feedback i’m completed

work fine that’s like bug fixes and stuff you think not really support escalations and emergency

outages i write code i don’t have outages unless github is done

so this is all very very fascinating all those server migrations and outages but

it really has nothing to do with developers what consists work of developers that’s easy

new features bug fixes and refactoring

there’s some refrigerations over there i don’t that’s really not my work

so i think by now i proved with you with all the clarity that devops is a plot of all people

against us the developers in order to force us do their job

no doubt about it but the question is putting their job aside for it for a

second what is our job the developers what is our job what do we do

well there are obviously many definitions i like this one the manifesto software

craftsmanship i know there is a baggage around the manifesto itself and the authors and what’s not but in the end of

the day the message is i think something that we can all uh sign up to

not only working software but well defined for software yes quality is very important to us not only responding to

change but also steadily adding value obviously not only individuals but also

community of professionals yes we want to be better as the community not only customer goal production but productive

partnerships i think we all can agree this is something that a software engineer can sign up

and um another way to look at it it’s just breaking down the same points is a slide

from a talk of my friend uh anton kiax he delivered to talk about sort of

craftsmanship and kind of summarized it so he spoke about being full stack

developer being political developer and how we actually doesn’t matter for

us which language or framework do we work as long as i understand the development concepts this is all like

about us the interesting part is that he also mentioned the development and after

thought right the developers don’t really care about this stuff the only reason it even

mentioned is that we don’t want to be bothered with this in the middle of the night not our job and it’s very annoying when

someone calls us and wants something from us our job is done by then we already wrote code i don’t know what you

are talking about go figure your server out just yourself right

so if we try to sever to summarize what definition of done for a software

developer is so um as i already mentioned i’m going to read

from slide that’s my favorite slice we understand what needs to be done our

code is readable simple and understandable our code is easy to deploy this is all i hope you all buy into

non-functional requirements are met very important like stuff like performance and stuff uh we didn’t incur any

technical depth we actually reduced it our test pass the qa look and take a

look and they look happy team leader to logan they’re all happy and then product

owner who is the proxy for customer in our environment took a look and they are

happy as well which basically means client is happy and we’re good

right this is the definition of them everybody are happy i’m i can go to sleep don’t call me three

3m server immigrations whatever right so um

something interesting about this slide you see how we work together very happily with the qa

and the testing folks i don’t know if you’re long enough in the industry to remember that

was not the case some time ago this is something that i found online

and now it just looks ridiculous i mean this is

why would i be in the rivalry with their qa people it

doesn’t make any sense one of the things that i want in my definition of done is

quality code how do i achieve quality code those forks actually help me i want to work

with them this doesn’t make any sense right who who agrees that the qa are not

the enemy those days every i’m just checking if you’re not asleep because obviously you agree

now and that’s because ah here are my soviet names um and that’s because we want a

higher quality this is something that again i hope all of us as developers agree we want higher quality

now interesting observation what we consider quality changes over

time i already showed you how old i am so i will allow myself to go back in time

using the weighted machine and look at the website of my bank 10 years ago

this is [Music] there we go this is the website of my

bank ten years ago and there is you can see here news and announcements and you

know what sometimes they say you know what your bank will be 12 hours of maintenance window

to ensure quality obviously and 10 years ago you were like whatever

who uses this anyway i’m going to i’m going to branch if i need something because it’s not very useful anyway so i

don’t care right you were like whatever nowadays not so much

right me personally i switched banks over the quality of their mobile app

and i i know that i’m not the only one so for us suddenly this stuff

is important didn’t have to be but now it is

there is also another very important shift that happened in ensuring quality

code quality is not enough more and more we learned that what breaks our applications our software is

data and there is a lot of data and there is more and more data every year

um this is a survey or whatever prediction by uh uh seagate they’re kind of biased they

do storage but but even if you take it with a granule

solve you know the story by now there is more and more data and every company

becomes now a big data company i mean everybody have a geoscientist

general has a chief scientist what do we have to and no no we have a good reason we have a lot of data right but

everybody have a lot of data right what it means is

there is no more staging server as we know remember the good old staging server in

which you can roll out your software test the hell out of it and say this is

awesome i can go to sleep it will use it will work exactly the same in production

not anymore just because putting everything mimicking the production in staging

server it’s impossible just because the sheer amount of data that we have to

deal with so what do we do obviously we panic

and then we say you know what it i will test in production

there is a whole industry now of testing in production

it’s called by fancy words that need to meet actually masquerade the horror of the whole thing

it’s called progressive delivery but you know what here and then we get the glimpse of what really is going on

my favorite is blast radius everybody knows it’s going to fail

miserably in production the only thing we’re trying to achieve is less casualties

not zero that’s honestly it will it won’t work but let’s hope less people

will pay attention what it means for us the developers that

suddenly the only way to ensure quality

is production and if we care about quality

and we already established that we do we have to be there where the is

sorry when we deploy to production we have to be there because this is

where we can see whether it work we can see that it didn’t work

right we have to be there and that means that we are now on board

that suddenly getting calls at 3 a.m it is a part of our job

because you know we’re already committed to quality so we’re fact sorry so we’re on call we participate

we’re involved so now since we care about the quality

production and we have blaster ideas sorry and we have progressive deployment

we have to have another line in this list which is

sre took a look and they are happy with the software who know

sorry a very apparently by the definition of people who invented sre are people who

implement devils those are the people who are in charge

of successful progressive delivery which is obviously an oxymoron but they do

their best what does it mean they took a look and

they are happy first of all she will go wrong and that

means we will need to deploy three or redeploy

to be able to deploy at 3m we need to know how our software is deployed

we need to build to be able to build our software very fast because you remember

why there is like a blast there are casualties people are dying deployed to your software already

it has to be built very very fast scalable because again

black friday the site is down we’re losing billions of dollars let’s add more servers this is how we

you know this is how we fight this with more drawing more servers on it hopefully it will help somehow

our code starts fast and dies fast obviously because we need to restart the rebugs now we fix that we need to

restart as fast as possible our code is observable because we want to know that something went wrong

hopefully not by angry mob on twitter but in some other ways observability might help

might not but we try our best our consequence feature flags feature

guides are the best thing once we lose this but sorry once we deployed to production now we have a lever that can

hide all the new features that are so great that it didn’t work that we

can we can hide them so people will feel that it everything is great so visual flags are amazing are good backwards

compatible obviously because now we have some new parts of the system but also all parts of the system that need to

work together and forward compatible you know why because we need a rollback so

now we have older systems that somehow needs to be able to know

how to communicate with newer parts of the system that didn’t exist when we wrote the old good luck

our body meets event streams again because hopefully our code event streams is better than

our twitter event stream uh we’ll see this is also very familiar if you ever

heard about world factor app this is more or less the list of what a

modern cloud native application should look like now it turns out that 12 factors are not

enough so there are 14 and 16 and 18 all of them as long as it’s power of two and

a simple number it works and people can come up with any number of

factors by now and this is very convenient so anyway one more directly from the 12 factor app

our code is lean and by lean means

it saves money this link

and then you go and you ask yourself what i have to do with lin

saving money wasting money this is all of stuff they have their aws bill it’s

terrifying it’s horrible i don’t want to know anything about it it has nothing to do with me

but is it here’s an example of a talk from kapka summit 2019

[Music] software engineer developer from signalfx x signalfx now splunk

tell talks about how they implemented kafka obviously a very

developer like oriented framework to save tons of money for the

organization now suddenly we not only care about production and 3m but we also care about

bunny and this is terrifying because or is it

there is might be something interesting here next time we just obviously now as you

all know when your best boss is talking about cutting costs

the normal answers like hey let’s lay off people

or maybe how about does it work again come on

how about make developers paying for their own coffee you know what we don’t need any of those

we can actually switch to serverless move to the cloud starting saving money and this is something which is

completely in our control so you as developers instead of worrying about layoffs and paying for coffee

just need to learn how to product to pronounce cube cuddle

and save money to your organization i have no idea how to pronounce it i pronounce it

this and every time differently and everybody goes like that’s exactly how it is

cube control you control yep i have no idea anyway

this is how we can save money but not only that we can actually contribute to other

business requirements for example we need more happy customers and you know customers your customers what do we want

as customers getting back to the story of my bank mobile app what do we want more features

where do we want them ah we want them yesterday

obviously how devops can help don’t report

elite performers deploy 208 times more frequently to production

more features to production faster this is what business wants this is what dora delivers yeah it devops

what else how about security we need to improve security

how do we do that well obviously we hire a chief information security officer so we will have someone to blame when

incident happens and then fire them that’s what we do or we can start thinking about security

in other aspects for example think about security as you were thinking about stopping distances when you learn for

your driver license and now you go like what what this has to do with anything

this has to do with anything by saying there are completely different concepts that contribute to your stopping

distance thinking distance neuron fighting in the brain and all this stuff and then breaking distance which is the

rubber the pavement and how they work together it’s the same as security

in reactive security when you have been hurt and feel pay attention to my words not

if but when you were hacked you need to react you need to identify

the problem as super as fast as possible fix it as fast as possible and then

update your software as fast as possible and you go like no we’re going to be

fine we’re going to prevent anything no one will hack us well i remember this guy

specter and meltdown a couple of years ago attacking all the chipsets on the planet and what’s not

well the problem with spectra specifically is that it’s not a venerability

but instead it’s a pattern of when your abilities

you know how it works we take

software a lot of software big data chief information shifts whatever chief

what it was a data scientist and learn from it

then we can assume how chipsets

are going to optimize the flow of this software

and we know for sure how any software in the world is going to be

optimized all we need to do then is actually attack this software as we would attack the

software that we know some threads are impossible well that’s not true

you know how you can write code that will be completely protected against spectre

write terrible shitty code no one will ever guess

how the chips are going to optimize terrible and shitty code

they can predict how well written code will be optimized but this is not what you do well anyway

back to the story you need to react fix it and then update your software how

do you update your software well if you update it 208 times faster you will be

able to be more protected from the vulnerability than your

competitor and frankly this is all you care about you don’t need to run to be the fastest

who run from the bear you only need to be faster than one another one other guy

it’s exactly the same here so anyway what i’m trying to say is yes

you know by now devops is a nasty plot of ops people to make us work harder

but it’s actually an evolution it’s evolution that

provides business with quality with i don’t know what it goes like that

with savings with new features and with security

and that means that we really don’t have a choice because

business wants all that they expect us to adopt devils

once this demon is out of the box you cannot put it back in

the industry discover devops and liked it

so you’d better learn this and start implementing

but what is that you remember this diagram you saw it

million of times you take you’re a developer all you need to do now is learn

all the concept of possible of operations and then all the possible con tools and

concept of qa and then you are one unit of devops engineer right

well good news everyone

this is unicorn’s part during rainbows

never existed because devops engineers do not exist

devops engineers do not exist because no one is capable of knowing all that

devops is about collaboration between different people that know different

things and even is about collaboration the terms devops engineer

has as much meaning to it as a term collaboration engineer whatever it is

devon’s engineers do not exist because you cannot know anything not everything

no one expects you to know everything and whoever expects you to know everything are pretty stupid

now the most the last politically correct slide of this talk i apologize in

advance i was born in soviet union where no one cared about this i was raised in

israel and no one still cares about this sorry not why why am i doing that

i sincerely apologize but it is what it is anyway t-shirt people

people not this t-shirt people what does it mean it’s people who know a lot about

everything no no one knows a lot about everything tj people have a depth they know

something about one thing developers know about how to write code

operations know about how to deploy code security know how to secure code but

we have the way of understanding different concept and

working together this is what fusion people really is

good news everybody ops people realized that devops is not about them

or not only about them only one here after the door report that i showed you

neodoran report 19 still not the latest but just one year after the one that i showed you

look what’s what difference a year makes and it’s even pre-copy

first of all who dora asks development and engineering

most people who answered the door report in 2019 where

developers suddenly they want to hear what developers have to say about that

look at the metrics there is an entire pillar now that it’s called software

development suddenly software development is a large part of what

devops is about remember the phoenix project and not a single developer

even there the situation is completely changed obviously jenkins cannot rewrite

the book that is already out so he writes a new one it’s called the unicorn project

guess what exactly the same story one single individual

invents devops and wins what’s the difference this time

it’s maxine the lead developer right and you know what that was my kind

of theory that it was like trying to make things right with the developers

for devops i asked jim i told him like he was sitting like in the first row when i delivered this talk

and asked is it true and he was like

remember those scary stories that we were like we’re not sure where they where they are and what we do with them

you know what sres are not about moving us the developers into devops it’s the other way around

it’s teaching ops people how to write code sre is what happens when you tweet

operations as it was a software problem suddenly

it’s all software it’s all what we do so it’s not that that we need to kind of

come up with some new thing which is both developers and operations instead

it’s looking on ops problem through the eins of the developers which is pretty good news for

us because he asked the ops is an ops idea and you cannot change the past this

is how it started but the business liked it and it means that we’re all committed

because it provides quality it’s lean it compresses it gives competitive advantage and it’s security

and it’s not as best as it sounds now everything is code we as the developers will have code so it’s fine all we need

to do is follow principles and practices and we know how to do that because we’re also awesome developers

so in the end of the day devops is fine there is nothing to be afraid of we

should embrace the thing by now and not be a devops engineer

so general on twitter devsops plus this is this conference

devops is a good hashtag to add to any of your posts on social it will give you tons of retweets from bots from all

around the world and search for this hashtag and retweet stupidly everything

they come upon jay barrows in the show notes this is where the slides are the video hopefully

will be when i hit like stop button and um all the links ruffle for the books

and now you know what’s happening we’re all going to general booth when one of you

and only one of you because you have to be present to win is going to win the amazing nintendo switch to spend your

nights while your code is deployed to production and before

it actually went boom and there are casualties in the blast running

with that thank you very much for coming for this awesome conference i’ll see you next time in

melbourne singapore and auckland you are amazing thank you

for all the stuff you didn’t hear any of that i’m going to delete it from the recording

no one

all right thank you very much great presentation thank you for wrapping it up uh as you said uh we’re gonna draw

the switch and uh and then of course straight up to that uh

yeah for some drinks all right so from carmel and myself

thank you so much i hope you enjoyed the past two days at devops sports conference uh be sure to uh to follow us

on linkedin and like all of our posts